As I was reading, I started thinking of the rocket equation, which gives the mathematics needed to solve this problem in general. There would need to be a discrete version though.
Excellent article. The cautionary reminder to not hyperfixate on the war game portion comes at good time with regard to the development of my own campaign.
If you want to increase verisimilitude, undead cannot maintain equipment for shit and thus they cannot maintain bows at all for long periods, same with metal armor and weapons as wear and tear and rust will do right away with them. Additionally, the people controlling them are HVTs and are good assassination fodder mid battle causing a whole line to instantly collaspe. Now whether the PCs are bad enough dudes to go for it, succeed, and make it out alive is open for discussion.
When the Discord group was run through a oneshot, I think for our group of men we ended up bringing close to a ton or two of equipment pooled between us. Including odds and ends stuff. If we had to pay that full 10lbs of feed per beast... ah man, that'd suck.
Also, the logistics elements make clerics more important. Being able to Create Water is absolutely life (and cost) saving.
I dunno. I was in the Army and do a lot of long distance hiking, (have done the AT, Camino, many other less known trails) and carrying more than two pounds of food per day is excessive. You can skate by on a pound a day, even. I can go a week on ten pounds, have gone two weeks on twenty. That’s with carrying luxuries like drink powders and spices. Dried foods common since the middle ages like dried meats, flat breads, cheese, nuts, rice are my staples. Also, unless I’m in a desert I rarely carry more than a liter (c. 2-3 lbs) of water at once. You collect water along the way. You should have means to purify it, I carry a light filter. In pre modern times people used fine cloth and charcoal to filter, but they had no idea of germ theory, so they generally didn’t even do that.
You can get by under duress on little to no food for at least a week. If I were in a real life dungeon, expecting to be there three days, I’d carry no more than 10 lbs of food, no more than a gallon or 8- 10 lbs of water with me, that amount depending heavily on what sort of water we can expect to find on the expedition.. Most caves are soaking with water, so a couple liter bottles would probably suffice.
Let me point out that I was careful to mention at the very beginning that there is no food or water to collect along the way. These are people with no hope of anyone coming to assist or save them, carrying very heavy loads, and required to be prepared for anything. Yes, you can "get by" bit these are professional athletes that have to be ready for heavy exertion and combat at any time.
I, too, was in the Army and I, too, have done long range hiking. There is a VAST difference between even the Appalachian Trail for leisure and survival in a hostile wilderness more akin to Mad Max than a state park.
I was gonna say, I used to go backpacking for a week at a time carrying food, water, tent, gear (including stove, pans, plates), and clothes. My pack was probably 40 lbs, and ultra-light packers manage with half of that. Assuming a mule can carry 300 lbs, they could easily carry more than enough gear for six party members, even more if they have a cart.
Also, per the author's point, if there's no water available on the way or in the dungeon then how the heck do the monsters survive there? Unless you're marching through a desert to an undead or elemental tomb, there will be water.
Point is, people have done this sort of thing all the time IRL for millennia.
They take food and water with them, but it doesn't require infinite mules.
How is the grass and moss growing if there's no water? How is the monster drinking if there's no water? Why can't the adventurers eat the monsters? A single giant rat has 12 HP, almost as much as a cow. So a single giant rat could feed the party for more than a week, and most parties are getting through way more beasts than that.
So you didn't actually read the piece, just the title?
The term 'Infinite Mules' is an expression, an exaggeration, to describe that the logistics problem is serious.
Also, giant rats are size S, cows are size L, so - no, a single rat (IF you find one and IF you kill one) won't feed very many people.
What I find fascinating is that the fact that you must plan logistics is just that - a fact. Quibbling over 10 lbs versus 8.25 per man per day, or hoping you can lick enough water off the cave walls and eat enough moss to reduce the burden doesn't change the fact that in a resource management game you have to manage resources.
Worse, in the absence of a spring, pool, or river the 'soaking wet' caves are going to take HOURS to wring out enough moisture for a person, so you aren't doing much else.
And they still don't do it, despite knowing that it's the right thing to do. And if you want to boil water, you have to carry fuel to do it. More mules.
Doesn't matter. This isn't about REAL people. This is about rules for a TTRPG. This is not real life. The rules are given in the manuals, and the things Rick is discussing match the PC need to follow those rules in order to survive within the game -- not real life -- the game.
Having to stop and explain to the DM how you put your socks on every morning, collect and purify water, setup and takedown your tent sounds like a miserable TTRPG experience.
So there were no Clerics? No Create Food and Water? I've played 1e AD&D for decades, and this:
"I decided 5 pounds of food and 5 pounds of water per person" is *your* decision - it's not part of the rules - although I will freely admit that it could be from the regrettable Wilderness Survival Guide which was very, very late 1e.
"just give up at least two 3rd level cleric spells every day instead of carrying supplies and hope the clerics don't die on the adventure or you starve to death" is AN option, yes.
What if your clerics buy a farm on the route? Sure, you should use that resource if available, but you might consider not making it your primary logistics tent pole.
And WSD is a handy manual, as was the non-regrettable DSG and UA. Perfect by no means, but good materials to be found therein.
On a micro scale had a similar experience in a supposed one shot with one other player as we tried to heist a demon casino. The entire planned one shot session was spent on the prep work; scouting the grounds, bartering information, securing key items, etc. The next session was all action and a great time *because* we spent so much time on the legwork!
The last D&D game my group Played (Pre-covid,) our party consisted of a LG paladin, a LN fighter, a LE Wizard (mine), a CE thief, a CG bard, and a N Druid.
During one of our adventures, we saved a small mining town from a group of bandits, and myself and the player of the CE thief sat down and started thinking of ways to restart the mine, regrow crops, repopulate the farms, etc. The DM started telling us that wasn't important.
The Thief's player just looked at him, and I very carefully explained to the DM (The guy who had written the game,) that spell components had to be grown and harvested. Equipment had to be repaired, swords and axes had to be made, and that the reason that our characters had agreed to this adventure was for money and magic items, and it wasn't a charity.
During all this, the LG, LN, and N were ready to go to the next place and kill the next group of baddies.
Yes, I’m phone posting
As I was reading, I started thinking of the rocket equation, which gives the mathematics needed to solve this problem in general. There would need to be a discrete version though.
Also, oh to play D&D 1e.
The players call it "mule math"!
I've seen it referred to in military history as "the tyranny of the wagon equation" in a clear nod to the rocket equation.
Excellent article. The cautionary reminder to not hyperfixate on the war game portion comes at good time with regard to the development of my own campaign.
The best wargames have logistics.
This is one of the best uses for DnD, especially that second campaign. How do you resolve battles?
Abstracted? Or tactical level?
Tactical. i even have my own custom mass combat rules
If you want to increase verisimilitude, undead cannot maintain equipment for shit and thus they cannot maintain bows at all for long periods, same with metal armor and weapons as wear and tear and rust will do right away with them. Additionally, the people controlling them are HVTs and are good assassination fodder mid battle causing a whole line to instantly collaspe. Now whether the PCs are bad enough dudes to go for it, succeed, and make it out alive is open for discussion.
In my campaign mindless undead carry clubs, usually, and the main way to fight undead is, like you say, kill the necromancer
When the Discord group was run through a oneshot, I think for our group of men we ended up bringing close to a ton or two of equipment pooled between us. Including odds and ends stuff. If we had to pay that full 10lbs of feed per beast... ah man, that'd suck.
Also, the logistics elements make clerics more important. Being able to Create Water is absolutely life (and cost) saving.
Brett Devereaux keeps a blog about history and he discusses this very problem (he calls it the tyranny of the wagon)
This is the first part of a series focused on this very question:
https://acoup.blog/2022/07/15/collections-logistics-how-did-they-do-it-part-i-the-problem/
Good article, but I feel like it’s a miss to not use “the tyranny of the mules equation.” 😂
dude I have no idea what youre saying but thats on me. fascinating peaking in on something im completely deaf to. rock on. sounds fun.
Can't the mules just graze?
Rocky terrain with no fodder!
Part of the way up sure. Once you're on the edge of the mountain there's nothing.
The last time I played D&D would have been 1986. I didn’t make a decision to stop playing but simply stopped encountering other players.
None of the groups I ever played with had much in the way of resource management. Torches burned forever and characters didn’t need food.
I dunno. I was in the Army and do a lot of long distance hiking, (have done the AT, Camino, many other less known trails) and carrying more than two pounds of food per day is excessive. You can skate by on a pound a day, even. I can go a week on ten pounds, have gone two weeks on twenty. That’s with carrying luxuries like drink powders and spices. Dried foods common since the middle ages like dried meats, flat breads, cheese, nuts, rice are my staples. Also, unless I’m in a desert I rarely carry more than a liter (c. 2-3 lbs) of water at once. You collect water along the way. You should have means to purify it, I carry a light filter. In pre modern times people used fine cloth and charcoal to filter, but they had no idea of germ theory, so they generally didn’t even do that.
You can get by under duress on little to no food for at least a week. If I were in a real life dungeon, expecting to be there three days, I’d carry no more than 10 lbs of food, no more than a gallon or 8- 10 lbs of water with me, that amount depending heavily on what sort of water we can expect to find on the expedition.. Most caves are soaking with water, so a couple liter bottles would probably suffice.
Let me point out that I was careful to mention at the very beginning that there is no food or water to collect along the way. These are people with no hope of anyone coming to assist or save them, carrying very heavy loads, and required to be prepared for anything. Yes, you can "get by" bit these are professional athletes that have to be ready for heavy exertion and combat at any time.
I, too, was in the Army and I, too, have done long range hiking. There is a VAST difference between even the Appalachian Trail for leisure and survival in a hostile wilderness more akin to Mad Max than a state park.
How do the monsters in the dungeon survive if there's no food or water?
Plenty of food and water below, for the monsters. I don't think you'd enjoy rat sushi.
I was gonna say, I used to go backpacking for a week at a time carrying food, water, tent, gear (including stove, pans, plates), and clothes. My pack was probably 40 lbs, and ultra-light packers manage with half of that. Assuming a mule can carry 300 lbs, they could easily carry more than enough gear for six party members, even more if they have a cart.
Also, per the author's point, if there's no water available on the way or in the dungeon then how the heck do the monsters survive there? Unless you're marching through a desert to an undead or elemental tomb, there will be water.
Point is, people have done this sort of thing all the time IRL for millennia.
Yeah. And they take food & water with them. The entire point of the article.
Monsters can eat stuff like grass & moss, or don’t eat.
They take food and water with them, but it doesn't require infinite mules.
How is the grass and moss growing if there's no water? How is the monster drinking if there's no water? Why can't the adventurers eat the monsters? A single giant rat has 12 HP, almost as much as a cow. So a single giant rat could feed the party for more than a week, and most parties are getting through way more beasts than that.
So you didn't actually read the piece, just the title?
The term 'Infinite Mules' is an expression, an exaggeration, to describe that the logistics problem is serious.
Also, giant rats are size S, cows are size L, so - no, a single rat (IF you find one and IF you kill one) won't feed very many people.
What I find fascinating is that the fact that you must plan logistics is just that - a fact. Quibbling over 10 lbs versus 8.25 per man per day, or hoping you can lick enough water off the cave walls and eat enough moss to reduce the burden doesn't change the fact that in a resource management game you have to manage resources.
Your entire piece is about quibbling over minute logistics details and inventing bookkeeping where none is needed.
lol
" Most caves are soaking with water, so a couple liter bottles would probably suffice."
Ah, the Disease Table!
What is the typical percentage floor for military casualties due to public health and safety issues?
And this isn't you, the Player. This is your PC. They abide by game rules, not you.
Worse, in the absence of a spring, pool, or river the 'soaking wet' caves are going to take HOURS to wring out enough moisture for a person, so you aren't doing much else.
That's probably why people have been boiling water for millennia.
And they still don't do it, despite knowing that it's the right thing to do. And if you want to boil water, you have to carry fuel to do it. More mules.
Doesn't matter. This isn't about REAL people. This is about rules for a TTRPG. This is not real life. The rules are given in the manuals, and the things Rick is discussing match the PC need to follow those rules in order to survive within the game -- not real life -- the game.
Having to stop and explain to the DM how you put your socks on every morning, collect and purify water, setup and takedown your tent sounds like a miserable TTRPG experience.
Jeremy, it's clear you don't understand how the game works.
Why not just stop here while you are this far behind and no farther.
So there were no Clerics? No Create Food and Water? I've played 1e AD&D for decades, and this:
"I decided 5 pounds of food and 5 pounds of water per person" is *your* decision - it's not part of the rules - although I will freely admit that it could be from the regrettable Wilderness Survival Guide which was very, very late 1e.
"just give up at least two 3rd level cleric spells every day instead of carrying supplies and hope the clerics don't die on the adventure or you starve to death" is AN option, yes.
1E rules: 1-2 lbs of food/rations and 1 gallon (8 pints) of water per day to stay healthy per the DMG
1 gal = 8.3 lbs
So, rations/food + water = 10 lbs, same as Rick's calc.
5+5 vs 2+8 is the same for standard logistics, or at least for gaming.
What if your clerics buy a farm on the route? Sure, you should use that resource if available, but you might consider not making it your primary logistics tent pole.
And WSD is a handy manual, as was the non-regrettable DSG and UA. Perfect by no means, but good materials to be found therein.
I have fond memories of my HarnMaster campaign where the questions that we had are like:
- How much a Bard apprentice would earn per month?
- How much to make a medium foot soldier equipment?
- How many blacksmiths to attend the prince's request for 300 spears until the 3rd month of the year?
- And my favorite: How many wenches do you need to make society minimaly functional?
The good thing is that the system provide answers to all those questions. The more we learned about the world, the more we learned about the game.
On a micro scale had a similar experience in a supposed one shot with one other player as we tried to heist a demon casino. The entire planned one shot session was spent on the prep work; scouting the grounds, bartering information, securing key items, etc. The next session was all action and a great time *because* we spent so much time on the legwork!
The last D&D game my group Played (Pre-covid,) our party consisted of a LG paladin, a LN fighter, a LE Wizard (mine), a CE thief, a CG bard, and a N Druid.
During one of our adventures, we saved a small mining town from a group of bandits, and myself and the player of the CE thief sat down and started thinking of ways to restart the mine, regrow crops, repopulate the farms, etc. The DM started telling us that wasn't important.
The Thief's player just looked at him, and I very carefully explained to the DM (The guy who had written the game,) that spell components had to be grown and harvested. Equipment had to be repaired, swords and axes had to be made, and that the reason that our characters had agreed to this adventure was for money and magic items, and it wasn't a charity.
During all this, the LG, LN, and N were ready to go to the next place and kill the next group of baddies.